To Build A Ship....the HMS Victory and Cleopatra

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

This thread started over at the original Cardmodels.net site.
It should be complete in almost every respect except for the the occasional off-topic forray. I've included the original poster's name above each installment.

By Larrymax

Well, gang, here we go! This is the beginning of a new thread that will cover the building of two Sailing Ship Models, the HMS Victory, being built by Gil, and the HMS Cleopatra, being built by Max. The idea for this thread came about after some discussion about ship models and some reference material suggested by our beloved Rick!. Our goal is to have a forum where we can track each others progress, ask questions about techniques (several of which have already come up in the afore mentioned thread!), post some progress pics, and, hopefully, encourage each other to actually FINISH these MASSIVE undertakings! My best guess is a completion date somewhere around NEXT THANKSGIVING! All are welcome to read and follow along with Gil and I as we go about the construction of these beautiful kits. Hopefully, you will be inspired to purchase one yourself and join in on the building process. At the very least, there will SURELY (...and don't call me Shirley!) be many useful ideas that can apply to any other paper model you may be working on. Feel free to chime in with suggestions! So, without further ado, in the words of the immortal Jackie Gleason..."and awaaaaay we go!"

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Darwin

Aw geeze, guys, can't I play too?
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Live long and prosper.

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Nobi

Hi There,

Cant believe it is a paper...but i must believe. that's why i love papermodel.

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Best Regards
NOBI

"If the model turns into a failure -- immediately tell everyone it's a prototype"

Visit Paper Modeling Group at
http://groups.msn.com/PaperModeling/

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Gil

Hello All,

The HMS Victory by Shipyard is a 1:96 scale model of Admiral Nelson's Flagship in the celebrated Battle of Trafalgar in which Britain defeated the combined French and Spanish fleet off the coast of Spain on October 21, 1805 without losing a ship (Nelson died as a result of a snipers shot). It stands as a lasting monument to Britannia when she ruled the waves.

An interesting thing that I've found is there's no indication of the models size (I don't do Polish so that might be a big problem). The directions are only several paragraphs that could use a better translation. In defense of the lack of printed instructions and my lack of the Polish language there are however, very good line drawings which don't leave much to the imagination and most likely will suffice as the only building aids that I'll need (notice also that I ordered "Anatomy of a Ship, HMS Victory" just in case). The following delineates the as delivered paper content.

The model comes in a three staple folded page book format and is 421mm x 303mm in size. The model itself concists of:

o 18 pages of card stock (~ 80# stock)
o 24 pages plain (~ 20# stock)
o 1 page (~ 24# glossy stock)

Another 5 glossy pages are devoted to cover, back cover and pictures of the real Victory in Portsmouth, UK. I think I remember that this model is somewhere near 3 foot in length which I'll verify over the next several days.

My first impression is this is not for beginners. Lack of adequate assembly instructions imply that you had better have a better than average knowlege of shipbuilding in general and model shipbuiliding in particular as this kit has thousands of parts that need to be organized as a model ship (that's the general idea at least). Oh! one other point, there doesn't seem to be a picture of the actual model anywhere in the published model? I'm not sure that's a mistake.

Enough for now, Gil

[Edited by Gil on 2003-11-13 2:58 AM]

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I Got Carded!

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Larrymax

Gil, Terriffic Intro to your Vicory! I can concur with everything you have said about the kit as it comes delivered. Booklet form, cardstock pages of parts, plain paper pages of parts, and a single glossy page of color trim parts. I think one of the most overwhelming things in looking through all the parts is the sheer quantity of very small parts...there are easily several hundred blocks and tackle bits alone! All of which consist of 3 or 4 pieces to put togegether! Another thing I have noticed is the "templates" provided for the Masts and Spars. Simple outlines of proper length and taper, with a small circle denoting the proper diameter. Obviously, they intend you to create you own Masts and Spars, presumably from wood, but, being somewhat of a purist, I may try my hand at forming them from paper. (at least once, anyway!) I would have to agree with Gil, I certainly would not recommend any model ship of this magnitude to anyone without at least a moderate level of experience in paper modeling. Fortunately for me, I've been building paper models for about four years now and have build half a dozen wooden ship models. The lack of instructions will be challenging, but, as Gil mentioned, the assembly diagrams are large and very detailed and should be adquate to get through most assembly issues. I find myself taking the booklet out every evening to just stare at it. I, too, noticed there are many beautiful pictures of the finished product, but, suspiciously, they look like pics of a wooden ship model!! If our models come out looking HALF as beautiful as those pics, I will be very satisfied and proud. Can't wait to get started....perhaps this evening....probably this weekend!

Darwin, OF COURSE you can play, too!! All of you can! What are you going to build, Darwin?

Anxiously waiting to get started,
Max

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Gil

Hello All,

On the subject of masts and spars..., I suspect the reason for not including them is the amount of paper required for an adequate looking mast or spar. I have experimented with different tube rolling techniques over time and have found that using radial rolling for masts and trapezoidal rolling for spars delivers a most satisfying product. It's actually easier than most even suspect and after a few experimental rolls using starter rods and scoring techniques a quite right mast or spar can be turned out at an amazingly rapid pace.

Best regarfds, Gil
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I Got Carded!

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Larrymax

I have experimented with different tube rolling techniques over time and have found that using radial rolling for masts and trapezoidal rolling for spars delivers a most satisfying product.

All right Gil....you're not getting off THAT easy....would you like to explain or show a picture or two of what you mean by "radial" rolling and "trapezoidal" rolling. Easy for you!

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Darwin

You force me to dig it out of the archives....A FlyModel USS Constitution. Guess I'd better fire up the scanner and get going on it. As a little share regarding the rigging....on one of my trips down to Michaels Crafts I found hanks of hemp string that look like they will work perfectly for the standing rigging. this year's crop of chickens are out of the dungeon and into the chicken coop, so have some room in the basement to set up a card table and start butchering paper.
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Live long and prosper.

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Larrymax

Well, I got all my hull formers scanned and printed last night. Had to do some re-arranging of the parts as the model parts are outside the printing margins of my printer. Thank goodness for Photoshop! Also, when I mess one of them up, I still have the original template to go back to! Next, get them glued to my chipboard backing and start cutting them out! I think I'm going to need another box of 100 exacto blades!

Another thought has crossed my mind.....would it be cheating to purchase premade wooden block for this kit? That would certainly make life sooooooo much easier.....those blocks are sooo tiny, it'll take forever to cut them out and assemble them! Ah, the age old question!...to be, or not to be, a purist! Your thoughts, Gil, Darwin?

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Gil

Hello All,

Larry, I suppose you're speaking of the blocks for the rigging. Buying already made is perfectly OK in fact recommended if it makes the model better. One caveat though is that they must be of the correct scale. The blocks used on the lower sails were actually scaled with the size of the lines which were used. Large lines were used on the lower, mid size on the middle and light lines on the top (I haven't done the calculations for 1:96 but will in the course of the build). The type used must conform also with those used in the period. Have you decided what type of material you're going to use for your lines as this brings up a whole new subject. Constructing the model is only about 40% of the job, rigging, sailmaking and outfitting will take the rest (you are rigging it withs sails aren't you?).

Enough for now.

Best regards, Gil

Post Scriptum: I suggest that you concentrate on the hull construction for the moment. Shipyard nearly guarantees that the frames will be in the proper position if all is cutout accurately. Also you should think about a method to cradle the hull so it can be rotated around it's fore/aft axis. This really makes building a lot easier.

[Edited by Gil on 2003-11-14 4:37 PM]

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I Got Carded!

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Larrymax

Hmmmm....thanks for the tip (and the justification!) on the blocks, Gil. We have a pretty well supplied hobby store not too far away with a great selection of wooden ship parts in all different scales....looks like I'll be paying them a visit soon to have a look at blocks and rigging line, as well as anchor chain, maybe even belaying pins. I haven't given too much thought to the sails, yet, but I have used Silkspan, dyed in tea, on other models with great success...looks really nice. I may purchase this Keel Clamp from Modelexpo.com .... $60.00 is a little pricey, but it sure would come in handy! Maybe I can make one up myself...we'll see

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Peter H

A wonderful thread to get going. All the best to you Gil and Larrymax and Darwin. I'll be all ears(eyes) watching the progress.

Good luck and many thanks for/future posts.

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Larrymax

Progress Pics - Bulkhead Assembly.

Well I've finally got started! Hooray! After scanning, printing and spray mounting my bulkheads to the chipboard, I got busy cutting them out. The chipboard I'm using (from the backs of pads of paper I got at WalMart) is working very nicely...nice even consistancy, easy to cut. I realized, after cutting out the center (keel) bulkhead supports (2 of them, one for the front half of the ship, one for the aft) that the chipboard I was using was too thin. I found some Illustration board (about 1/8" thick) that is perfect! The slots in the bulkheads that slide down over the center supports fit perfectly over the illustration board. Plus, being thicker and stiffer, it will insure (I hope) a warp-free assembly! It was a bit of a bugger cutting all the thin slots for the bulkheads to slide onto in the Illustration board, but, with a lot of patience and even more exacto blades! I finally managed to get them cut cleanly and squarely. I've dry fitted the bulkheads for the forward half of the ship (see pic below) and everything seems to line up very nicely. A nice detail that might have been easily overlooked by the designers, if you look at the slots cut in the bulkheads (see pic below), you'll notice that the slots for the deck are slightly angled, allowing for the "cambre" of the deck! (I'm impressed!) It may take a bit of sanding the edges of the bulkheads once they are all glued in place and secure, to insure an even and true surface to glue my "planks" to, but, so far, all looks very nice! Here are a few pics of the bulkheads for the aft half, as well as one of the dry-fitted assembly of the fore half! Also, just for grins, a pic of my cat, Marty! She lays in wait for me to cut things out, then ATTACKS! Just ONE MORE challenge in building my "Cleo" : )

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Gil

Hello All,

Haven't been able to touch the Victory. I've been having what I call a Bill Gates Love-In..., just got the entire system back to where it was several days ago. Hopefully it will remain stable for another 6 months before something mysterious starts happening again.

Larry, the circles with 2mm, 1mm, 0,5mm with a heavy underline refer to the backing board thickness of the section. Your bow section looks impressive. I got out my 1mm board last night but haven't had time to start the scan process yet.

Check out the different sizes of cotton crochet thread. It comes in various sizes which can be combined by a rope making device to create all necessary rope sizes. It should be dyed either dark brown/black for the standing rigging or medium brown to light brown for running rigging (smaller is also lighter in color). The small linters are controlled by dipping it into a solution of turpentine and bees wax (yes, turpentine dissolves bees wax). It is left to dry and then can be used.

Enough for now.

Best regards, Gil

P.S. Nice cat!

[Edited by Gil on 2003-11-17 12:49 AM]

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I Got Carded!

Ron · Site Admin Joined: 13 Jan 2004 Posts: 191

By Larrymax

Yikes! and I thought I was a purist!!! Thanks for that tutorial on making ships line, Gil, but frankly, I think I'll just spend the $5.00 and purchase pre made rigging line at Pegasus Hobbys! THAT is just TOO MUCH WORK!

Here's another suggestion....before you start laying up your bulkheads, UNDERLINE the Roman Numeral Part Numbers! I screwed up on mine by placing bulkhead XI where bulkhead IX should have been....noticed it when I was looking down the water line....all of a sudden a bulkhead was sticking out in the wrong place! Had to "exacto" it out of there, cut out a new part, and replace it!! Darn Roman Numerals!!!